300 OSSM Accuracy

Discussions on the Olympic Arms WSSM Series

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Re: 300 OSSM Accuracy

Postby lilquiz » Mon May 09, 2011 2:47 pm

Sorry these were shot at 85 yrds with 175 smk
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Re: 300 OSSM Accuracy

Postby Globemaster » Mon May 09, 2011 2:55 pm

lilquiz wrote:OK. Was able to get to the range and test my two new loads using RL-15 and RL-17 and I am quite pleased.
Kinda tongue and cheek on the chrony though.I need friend with another to confirm (hint hint Bowslinger)

RL-17 ,2.285 col. 75 degrees ambient
45 gr.
46 gr.
46.5 gr

Image

bottom is the best at 46.5 gr at 2947 fps (i know)
Image

next is RL-15 same col. had a test set up from 43 to 45.5 but the 43 gr gave me this
Image
this is a 3 shot group, 2 went through the same hole 2960 fps.
These are the first tests, will test case head expansion later (has to be done with new brass). Cycling and primers are perfect and normal.

respectable groups :thumbs up:
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Re: 300 OSSM Accuracy

Postby Hoot » Mon May 09, 2011 3:21 pm

Zooka wrote:Nice! What bullet you shootin'?
Anyone ever try H4895?
-Z


Four flights of 5 shots.

45gr H4895

Sierra 165 Spitzer Boat Tail

COL 2.29

Win LR Primer Average = 2718 fps
Rem 7 1/2 Primer Average = 2700 fps
Fed 210M Primer Average = 2710 fps
CCI 200 Primer Average = 2686 fps

It was more a primer test than a powder test. The load density is less than 8208. Still, there were no pressure signs and there was room left in the case for more than I used. RL-15 and RL-17 are both excellent powders.

Hoot

Edited to add COL and learn how to count :wink:
Last edited by Hoot on Tue May 10, 2011 4:39 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 300 OSSM Accuracy

Postby Hoot » Mon May 09, 2011 7:47 pm

lilquiz wrote:Sorry these were shot at 85 yrds with 175 smk


Considering how much of the case those 175s take up, how do you fit enough powder in there to get them up to those speeds at safe pressure levels? My .300 Win Mag with 77 grains of powder throws a 175 in that same vicinity.

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Re: 300 OSSM Accuracy

Postby Tunnel Toad » Mon May 09, 2011 8:09 pm

I've used RL-17 with a single bullet out of my Gamestalker. I expect maybe 50f/s faster out of my K8.

180g Sierra Pro Hunter
COL 2.28
46.8g = 2475f/s
48.5g = 2552f/s

I'd expect about the same with the 175 SMK.
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Re: 300 OSSM Accuracy

Postby Tunnel Toad » Mon May 09, 2011 8:15 pm

Anyone ever try H4895?

I tried a single 3-shot group with H4895 and for some reason quickly moved on. I'll check my records later to see if why I didn't like it.

150g Grand Slam
46g H4895 = 2870f/s
COL: 2.250
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Re: 300 OSSM Accuracy

Postby lilquiz » Mon May 09, 2011 11:38 pm

Like I said ,however gratifying those velocitys were to see on the chrony...I am having a hard time accepting them.
I had a range of 43-45.5gr with RL-15 and 45-48gr with RL-17 both according to QL were supposed to give me 2800 fps at the maximum charge.Both gave me well over what I was looking for , with the lower powder loads.My chrony is about 4 months old and is treated with care. I rebooted it after the first test to see if it would change the results but no difference. I will try to run a speed test on some factory as a baseline. I really do suspect it is about 100fps off, since both loads hit exactly were my original zero was.I know of some other reloaders and will see if I can get another chrony to confirm as well.It would be my luck nothing of mine works right (powders/ chronys) at higher temps :roll:

In thw words of a great philosopher(Jerry Clower) "aint but one thing that dog hates more than a coon....and that's a lying chrony" :D
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Re: 300 OSSM Accuracy

Postby Hoot » Tue May 10, 2011 2:00 am

lilquiz wrote:Like I said ,however gratifying those velocitys were to see on the chrony...I am having a hard time accepting them.
I had a range of 43-45.5gr with RL-15 and 45-48gr with RL-17 both according to QL were supposed to give me 2800 fps at the maximum charge.Both gave me well over what I was looking for , with the lower powder loads.My chrony is about 4 months old and is treated with care. I rebooted it after the first test to see if it would change the results but no difference. I will try to run a speed test on some factory as a baseline. I really do suspect it is about 100fps off, since both loads hit exactly were my original zero was.I know of some other reloaders and will see if I can get another chrony to confirm as well.It would be my luck nothing of mine works right (powders/ chronys) at higher temps :roll:

In the words of a great philosopher(Jerry Clower) "ain't but one thing that dog hates more than a coon....and that's a lying chrony" :D


You probably know this already, but don't set up too close to the muzzle. I did that early on. Something like 6-8 feet and got my share of occasional readings outside what I should have. When I moved it to 10-12 feet away, those anomalies dropped significantly. Not totally, but to a much more random degree. Just the other day, in the middle of a run of 30 shots, I got four relatively consistent, but 600 fps low readings in a row. Then it went away for the rest of that range session. "I do believe in ghosts! I do believe in ghosts! I do...
I always use sky screens regardless of the weather. I have never performed any kind of accuracy testing since for the most part, mine reads what I would expect it to. I don't know if I want to look behind that curtain. Imagine finding out that 10 years of work was wrong. That's about how long I've had this one.

Hoot

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Re: 300 OSSM Accuracy

Postby Zooka » Tue May 10, 2011 4:07 am

Last time I was at the range, the rangemaster was cussing his chrony and asked if he could compare it to mine (same model). He shot across both and sure enough his was wrong. Way fast, like this one of Lilquiz'. It turned out he had borrowed it from a friend.
We were puzzled until he mentioned it had flashed "LB" when he turned it on.
Aha, sez I. "Low Battery".
The manual states that if you don't use an alkaline battery, and if your battery is getting old, it'll mess up readings and flash "LB". (He didnt have the manual, in his defense.) You might try swapping batteries. But dont change that load! Doesnt matter what the speed was really, you have struck load gold.
Reason I asked about the 4895 is that the Win 748, though it is my favorite for moderate temps at the range, isn't stable enough to trust in Texas summers at the range or Texas winters at the hunt. H4895 looks to be the best "extreme" powder (stable in temperature variations) in my modeling. RL17 is also a good one for that. I don't know much about RL15's stability.

Hoot, I'm getting to the Post office today.
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Re: 300 OSSM Accuracy

Postby Hoot » Tue May 10, 2011 5:40 am

To me, there appears to be a message in everyone's load data that we keep skirting. Just because you can load a particular caliber cartridge to some maximum velocity without damaging the gun or brass does not mean it is the best engineering practice, AKA not the "sweet zone" for that round. IMR 8208 XBR has quickly become one of my favorite powders and Hornady is not bashful about promoting it in every caliber it can perform decently in on their load data web site. However, if you look at the .300 OSSM's cousin, the .25 WSSM, Hornady does not recommend 8208 for the 120gr bullet, the closest they have to our 150gr. They actually don't recommend it for any bullet in the .25 WSSM. They do have listings for like 16 other powders known to work decently with their 120gr loading though. Who exactly decided 8208 was the best choice when the .30 OSSM was being worked up on paper? One would reason that you typically (not always) use a faster powder the lighter you go in a bullet. The 150 is not lighter than the 120. In fact, the best velocity from their listing for the .25 WSSM 120gr comes from a powder that is 30 steps slower than 8208. What is maximum velocity worth in trade for accuracy and efficiency?

I pose this question to all for your consideration. When all is said and done, in trying to find loads that work for us using 8208 are we starting off each journey on the wrong road? Perhaps the .30 OSSM is not in it's finest form trying to beat out a .30-06's velocity. Great marketing sizzle, but I for one am more interested in the tenderness and taste of the steak. Perhaps it should be pursued with a goal velocity a little lower. It would still be a great accomplishment to achieve on an AR15 platform.

Feel free to call for my head on a pike, but I trust my gut feeling more than a sales department executive. Mike Milli, if you come up for air and read this, please wade in. I trust your opinion more than either of the previous mentioned.

Hoot
Last edited by Hoot on Tue May 10, 2011 8:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 300 OSSM Accuracy

Postby Zooka » Tue May 10, 2011 8:31 am

Hoot,
One thing I noticed early on was that with a given base cartridge, like the WSSM, the smaller the caliber you make it, (ie, the bigger the difference between the width of the main brass and the width of the bullet) the slower the powder needs to be. 223 WSSM loves slow powders; 25 WSSM likes faster ones. Straight wall cartridges like the 45-70 like pistol powders. The 458 SOCOM has a teeny little shoulder, and likes H110 and RL7, for example.

I have not tried 8208 XBR myself simply because QL places its performance well below many other powders. Modeling a large variety of 150, 165, 175, and 180 grain 308 bullets with OALs (bullet only) under 1.26" I see the following powders in the top 10 over and over again: W748 and 760 (760 for the 180 grainers), H4895, BL-C2, 335, and varget; RL 15 and 17, IMR 4895, 3031 and 4320; Acc 2520; and Ramshot X-Terminator, TAC and Big Game (again, with the heavier bullets go with the slower powders.)

I'm looking for the best powder in many temperatures, and the one that consistently shows up well in the models is H4895. Best overall is the W748 at 70 degrees F. If it was more temp stable it'd be a no brainer, all arounder.

As for accuracy, I am beginning to suspect that a 22 inch barrel is not the best choice with this round because the OBT range keeps coming in sort of in the middle, that is to say, the predicted sweet spots are just a little too hot for the cartridge, and to get to the next one down you have to drop a lot of velocity. And every great load for the round is compressed. Which is OK with me.

QL has a function where you can set up a given bullet-powder combo (even if it is way over max pressure) to give a certain barrel time, and then QL will generate all of the loads that will match that barrel time with that bullet and barrel. So once you find your optimal barrel time, it'll tell you what other powders and how much to load to get that same time. I will do a OCW test the next time I get to the range and try to determine the sweet spot on mine, see if it follows the Long OBT chart. The fancy muzzle compensator D-Tech put on mine might throw it off some, I think. THe best group I have had didnt match the Long numbers.
That won't be til June though, I'm leaving town for 3 weeks on Saturday.

I'm still on the learning curve on how to do this, but the round will clearly match hot 30-06 reloads, and I am feeling pretty sure that it will probably be accurate at or above standard 30-06 factory load velocities, even with 2 inches less barrel than they use for their numbers. Well beyond the .308s. Which, by the way, will have the same nodes or "sweet spots", according to the OBT theory. Only the .308 can't get to the faster ones the WSSMs can.
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Re: 300 OSSM Accuracy

Postby Hoot » Tue May 10, 2011 8:44 am

Thanks Zooka. I was wondering if there was more to the correlation than I was realizing. Your post clarifies that. I have bottles of H4895 (2 steps slower), RL-15 (12 steps slower), Varget (14 steps slower) and RL-17 (29 steps slower). Lots of fertilizer to grow a load with. I also realize burn rate isn't all there is to a powder's characteristics.

FWIW, you're right about the straight walls. My 450 Bushmaster loves Lil Gun.

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Re: 300 OSSM Accuracy

Postby Zooka » Tue May 10, 2011 8:53 am

Just remember those burn rate charts are not linear; just because one powder is 12 steps below another one doesnt mean it is 12 increments slower. There could be a big cluster of powders around one rate with little real difference in burn rate. Also, every chart i've looked at is different. Test procedure, lot differences, I dunno why.
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Re: 300 OSSM Accuracy

Postby lilquiz » Tue May 10, 2011 12:41 pm

The reason I chose the two new powders , is that RL-17 was formulated for wssm loads. RL-15 claims to be consistant in all temps and was chosen for mil-spec sniper rounds.

I really have no desire to compete with the 30.06, about 2800 fps is all I want due to the 175 bc is best at that velocity.


Oh yes these loads are sitting right on the nodes , I wanna confirm velocity to be able to use a ballistic chart.
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Re: 300 OSSM Accuracy

Postby Hoot » Thu May 12, 2011 6:43 pm

I've started in on modifying my stock promag .300 OSSM factory mag to both have a slot and to try to restrict the semi-staggered cartridge tendency in the mag to reduce the necessary width of the slit. The first part went well with an x-y drive and slotting cutter. Very neat and straight. The latter part is a no go, at least the way I tried going about it. I milled two pieces of teflon bar stock thin enough to slip between the grooves molded in each side of the follower in the rear half and the inside of the mag walls. They ran the length of the mag and fit the grooves perfectly. Also, they allowed the cases to slide past without binding them and holding them in near perfect alignment.

What I hadn't accounted for was the width of the spring. I tried three different springs from three brnds of AR mag and they are formed to literally ride along the inside of the mag walls. The .1 inch thick teflon slabs made the resulting passage too narrow to allow the spring the slide past them. Edit: I was rooting around and found what I think were some AK mags springs. They fit perfectly between the teflon slabs, which I might mention give it a nice clean look in there, but that's more an issue with aesthetics than function.

The single stack follower that Bushmaster has in their 450 Bushmaster mag looks very nice and I've already used it in a modified AR Stoner mag I made for the .300 OSSM shortly after I got it to have as a backup. For those interested, the 450 Bushmaster mag works beautifully with the OSSM as long as you lengthen the retainer slot. That mod is pretty much common knowledge for any mag to be used in the .300 OSSM. The lips are already formed for single stacking a fat cartridge.

Bushmaster sells the single stack followers separately if you want a follower that doesn't look hacked up. If you're considering buying one or two for experimenting yourself, be advised that the way Bushmaster charges for shipping, the best price break comes at 7 followers, so you probably would want to go in with a few other folks. Even then, they'll set you back about $15.60 each shipped. If you divvy the order up, figure a buck to ship each participant theirs.

I'm out of time for the day and will continue tomorrow after work. They're calling for rain all weekend, so I hope to have it completed some time Saturday, since the odds are against getting any quality range time.

Hoot
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Re: 300 OSSM Accuracy

Postby calinb » Thu May 12, 2011 7:05 pm

Interesting, Hoot!

How does the Bushy follower keep any of the rounds above the round that's contacting the follower (the "last round") centered? It seems like they would still tend to stagger themselves. But now I'm wondering if just providing the additional relief for the bullet tip would work. Forget about the case getting cocked a bit as long as the bullet tip doesn't hang up. Maybe it'll still feed.

Thanks for the report,

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Re: 300 OSSM Accuracy

Postby Hoot » Thu May 12, 2011 7:53 pm

calinb wrote:Interesting, Hoot!

How does the Bushy follower keep any of the rounds above the round that's contacting the follower (the "last round") centered? It seems like they would still tend to stagger themselves. But now I'm wondering if just providing the additional relief for the bullet tip would work. Forget about the case getting cocked a bit as long as the bullet tip doesn't hang up. Maybe it'll still feed.

Thanks for the report,

-Cal


The Bushy follower has absolutely nothing to do with stack alignment. It's just a nice follower for single stack calibers. The teflon straps on either side of the cut-out in the bushy follower are what keep the rounds aligned. I was hoping to hold off on photos until the project was completed, but I may have to post some along the way as we all know a picture is worth 1k words. You can buy prefabricated teflon stock in just about any form from places like McMaster Carr and slitting can be done with relative accuracy using just a dremel, cut-off wheels, a cool hand and a keen eye. AK mag springs are easy to come by and cheap. So, I hope to come up with an easily achievable, for folks without a machine shop at their disposal, decent looking and performing mod by the time I'm done. At that point, I'll create a stand-alone thread for the whole affair. For me, doing stuff like this is the ultimate form of indoor entertainment. When I was younger, it would probably have been second place. :wink:

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Re: 300 OSSM Accuracy

Postby Hoot » Fri May 13, 2011 4:48 am

Hoot wrote:...The Bushy follower has absolutely nothing to do with stack alignment. It's just a nice follower for single stack calibers...


It looks like this:

Image

The teflon slabs fit in the notched out areas indicated by the white arrow.

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Re: 300 OSSM Accuracy

Postby lilquiz » Fri May 13, 2011 2:09 pm

Finnished the testing on the rl-17 and rl-15 just for speed, due to time. RL-17 ,48 gr= 2620 ave.
RL-15, 45.5 gr 2690 ave. I will test a RL-15 at 46gr, hopefully this will achieve mid 2700 , somewhere in there lies the node. These were tested at 76 degrees on 175 smk. After pushing the chrony from 8 to 10 feet, using a fresh battery, and praying to the god of speed...Chuck Yeager..
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Re: 300 OSSM Accuracy

Postby Hoot » Fri May 13, 2011 8:14 pm

WRT magazines modded for additional COL.

Hoot wrote:...snip... So, I hope to come up with an easily achievable, for folks without a machine shop at their disposal, decent looking and performing mod by the time I'm done. At that point, I'll create a stand-alone thread for the whole affair....snip
Hoot


I have completed mine successfully and am writing up that new thread with plenty of pictures. I hope to have it done some time Saturday as it rains outside and additionally give it a try Sunday which they're predicting should offer better range weather.

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Re: 300 OSSM Accuracy

Postby Globemaster » Fri May 13, 2011 8:16 pm

Hoot wrote:Image

I like the looks of that follower ... gotta web link?
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Re: 300 OSSM Accuracy

Postby Hoot » Sat May 14, 2011 5:14 am

Globemaster wrote:I like the looks of that follower ... gotta web link?


Yes, but their web site is outdated. The listing is Here, about 5 up from the bottom, but the image is the blue snap-in one they used to sell. They are shipping the new black one now. Depending upon how true you Olympic mag was squared up (mine was a little cockeyed) you may have to fiddle a little to get it past two of the bent-over tabs that hold the floor plate in. In other manufacturer's mags, it goes in effortlessly. (go figure...)

From Bushmaster, 1 will run you around $20.50. If someone has relationship with Bushmaster beyond consumer, IE dealer discount perhaps they can do us an even better deal via a group buy. If that person is too busy, they can have them drop shipped to me and I'd be happy to take the job of distributing them to whoever bought in. Best price vs shipping for small lots to consumers comes at 7 (15.59ea) and the next break comes at 17 (14.80ea). USPS rates have gone up and re-shipping to the participants will run $1.75, but that's the same for probably 1to 5 of them. I wish I knew who their OEM was.

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Re: 300 OSSM Accuracy

Postby stdriver » Sun May 15, 2011 1:27 pm

Hoot: In Making a usable mag from available units, I purchased a Bushmaster 450 mag. I stripped the mag to use the follower in a promag and discovered the the springs in a 450 bushmaster are narrower than a standard ar15 mag. Inside the 450 mag, there are thicker walls the keep the rounds in the single stack mode,hence the deeper slots in the follower and narrow springs. However I could not find replacement springs in bushmaster's inventory of replacement parts.
As for a spacer inside the walls of a normal ar15 mag, I used i/2 wide strips of 40 thousand's sheet styrene that can be found at most hobby shops and secured them with super glue the iull length of the mag.
Hope this helps Stdriver
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Re: 300 OSSM Accuracy

Postby Hoot » Sun May 15, 2011 6:39 pm

As I said, mine is done as well as the photos to accompany a how-to thread like the Lee Factory Crimp Die thread I did. It's just a matter of assembling the narrative and the photos. I had hoped to get to it this weekend, but wound up getting caught up on chores. It rained Saturday and was beautiful sunny today. Unfortunately, the front behind the departing rain system put up a good fight not wanting to leave and we had 25 MPH wind all day, so no range time with the new mag and a batch of 2.40 COL loads to try. Now that I'm back to work tomorrow, it's supposed to be perfect weather for the next 3-4 days and rain again the next weekend. Go figure...

I will get the thread posted soon. It answers the materials and hardware questions quite well.

My spacers were teflon shaved off of one of the big blocks of the stuff I have. It pays to scrounge and horde.
I shaved off my .069 thick spacers from this chunk:
P1010680.JPG


Here they are inside the mag.
P1010666.JPG


Probably one of the more successful projects I pulled off with minimal advance planning. That translates to many folks on this forum can do this if they want.

Lots more images will be in the thread if the forum does not limit the number of images in a how-to thread.

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Re: 300 OSSM Accuracy

Postby Redneck Hapa » Fri Jul 15, 2011 4:31 am

Rattler,

What is the load data that Dustin is using with the 155 gr. Berger bullets?
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