Responsibility Question

Discussions on the Pistol Caliber AR15

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Responsibility Question

Postby Rattler » Thu Oct 04, 2012 6:31 am

Pistol caliber upper receivers are blow-back operated systems, they are NOT a gas impingement system like the standard AR15 chambered in 5.56.

I received this email today that prompted my remarks:

    Today for the first time got out my new 45acp upper and examined real close. First thing I noticed was that buying a 1000.00 upper from u guys does not mean it will fire out of the box. There was no gas tube installed, I started to take it apart to see what else was going on. Secondly the barrel nut is not lined up with the upper hole (ABOUT 1/8" OFF) so the gas tube will not install correctly.
    I really thought after spending so much and waiting 2 months would have delivered a better product. I am going to keep the upper but wanted u to know the status of what is being shipped out...Now I need to find a barrel wrench to correct the assembly and put back together.

I understand that as a customer service rep that it is the responsibility of the Staff at Oly to help the customer. And this is what was done. However, at what point is the burden of understanding, to at least basic operational knowledge of an item that, if used improperly, has a good chance of killing you?

This is akin to buying a new car, having it delivered to your home, and then not knowing that automatic transmissions exist, calling the dealership and balling them out for not installing the clutch pedal on this new car! It's so strange that it borders on the ridiculous, and at the same time so sad, that one cannot help but then spend as much time as necessary educating this man (who, having read the owner's manual could have done so himself...) just so he doesn't hurt himself or someone else.

Just thought I'd share.
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Re: Responsibility Question

Postby Globemaster » Thu Oct 04, 2012 7:45 am

just 'wow' ... that's hilarious :lol:
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Re: Responsibility Question

Postby mechanic » Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:16 pm

Should have bought it back. That man has no business operating it!
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Re: Responsibility Question

Postby Globemaster » Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:30 pm

mechanic wrote:Should have bought it back. That man has no business operating it!

Big Time! :mrgreen:
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Re: Responsibility Question

Postby Ken73 » Thu Oct 04, 2012 1:10 pm

Having been a manufacturer myself in the past (not of guns, of an item with a high potential for causing damage through misuse) I feel your pain. I would be polite, explain nicely to him that since it is a blowback operated weapon, it does not require a gas tube nor alignment. If he persists, consider buying it back from him if that's even an option.
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Re: Responsibility Question

Postby Dstehl » Thu Oct 04, 2012 1:49 pm

Um I have no words, for once I'm speechless. :?
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Re: Responsibility Question

Postby John A. » Thu Oct 04, 2012 2:03 pm

If he's concerned about the lack of gas tube and the delta nut being off center, just wait until he checks the gas port alignment with the front sight base and finds the barrel doesn't have a gas port drilled either. My bet is he'll really go bonkers then.

Best thing I think Olympic can do is thank him for his feedback, and attempt to explain to him that he is wrong and try to explain to him what direct blowback and direct impingment is and how they are different and his upper is not direct impingement operated.
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Re: Responsibility Question

Postby kurthuhn » Thu Oct 04, 2012 6:26 pm

My suggestion? Explain, in excruciating detail, why a pistol caliber upper is different - along with all the technical and physical reasons why. Drown him in technology. Then give him the choice to send it back, or rip s**t up with it. My guess is he'll opt for the latter. (apologies for implied foul language)
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Re: Responsibility Question

Postby Rattler » Fri Oct 05, 2012 6:38 am

I sent him a nice lengthy email explaining the differences between the pistol cal systems and the 5.56 units. I took the baffle him with BHS route. Truly overwhelmed him as anticipated and desired. He wrote back with:

    "Thank you so much for the information, I kind of found that out by a little research online. But it still leaves a couple of questions for me.
    1) Since the gas hole in receiver and barrel nut hole need not line up is it ok if there is a hole there or should the nut be turned until the hole is covered?
    2) Next is the hole in the barrel under the gas block, doesn't the gas then just shoot out the gas block towards the shooter or is it blocked in the gas block I purchased from Olympic ?
    3) And finally my last question, Nolan sent the thread size but I still needed the barrel O.D."

He really is clueless. I still replied and gave him the answers he needed, but also reiterated the importance of READING THE OWNER'S MANUAL.

He's a nice fells and all. just a consumer that really has no clue and needs educated. That's OK, an educated consumer is a good consumer. But for the life of me I cannot understand why the customer does not seek to get answers BEFORE he makes a purchase. Just me I guess, but I'm anal about having as much information that I can get BEFORE I buy.
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Re: Responsibility Question

Postby Rattler » Fri Oct 05, 2012 7:02 am

Got this one today from a "manufacturer" rep yesterday that we have been supplying parts to, mostly barrels. Here's what he had to say:

    "...(snippet) We have manufactured a ton of guns using your barrels, and they all have shot really well for us - no problems. But today, we got two units back from a LE agency that won't shoot. they wont even fully chamber a round! The barrels are obviously bad, and we need to make arrangements to send them back to you for replacement. I'm a little bit upset on this because we already have these guns sold and now I have to send them back to you because the barrels are messed up. It's costing me money. Don;t get me wrong, we like your stuff and have really good luck with your barrels, which is why I know these tow are bad. I guess the slipped past your QC. It would be nice to know we can just trust that we can just assemble these barrels on uppers and know that they'd be OK. But now, clearly we can't. What are you going to do to help us?"

Back story - this manufacturer has been buying barrels from us for a couple of years. Most of them fluted to their specs so they are identified and sold as their barrels. We had some "billing issues" with them, and so now we no longer make their custom fluted barrels, we just sell them standard barrels and if they want fluting we sell them OUR fluted barrels.

As it turns out, nearly two years later, after subsequent conversations, I come to find out they are NOT head-spacing ANY of the uppers or complete rifles they are sending out! NONE of them. He sent these two LE guns out, never headspaced them, never test fired them. Hardly a responsible thing for a "manufacturer" to do. This is why i constantly harp on the differences between brand names and manufacturers. This is the world of other "brand names" out there. It's more common then you think.
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Re: Responsibility Question

Postby Dstehl » Fri Oct 05, 2012 7:39 am

Again I'm speechless. I have assembled a few AR's for friends, well I actually taught them how using my tools. Seriously companies not testing or headspacing them, and then they wonder why they have issues. I am glad when I purchased my first AR I got an Olympic.
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Re: Responsibility Question

Postby Rattler » Fri Oct 05, 2012 12:37 pm

Rattler wrote:Got this one today from a "manufacturer" rep yesterday that we have been supplying parts to, mostly barrels. Here's what he had to say:

    "...(paraphrasing) We have manufactured a ton of guns using your barrels, and they all have shot really well for us - no problems. But today, we got two units back from a LE agency that won't shoot. they wont even fully chamber a round! The barrels are obviously bad, and we need to make arrangements to send them back to you for replacement. I'm a little bit upset on this because we already have these guns sold and now I have to send them back to you because the barrels are messed up. It's costing me money. Don't get me wrong, we like your stuff and have really good luck with your barrels, which is why I know these tow are bad. I guess the slipped past your QC. It would be nice to know we can just trust that we can just assemble these barrels on uppers and know that they'd be OK. But now, clearly we can't. What are you going to do to help us?"

Back story - this manufacturer has been buying barrels from us for a couple of years. Most of them fluted to their specs so they are identified and sold as their barrels. We had some "billing issues" with them, and so now we no longer make their custom fluted barrels, we just sell them standard barrels and if they want fluting we sell them OUR fluted barrels.

As it turns out, nearly two years later, after subsequent conversations, I come to find out they are NOT head-spacing ANY of the uppers or complete rifles they are sending out! NONE of them. He sent these two LE guns out, never headspaced them, never test fired them. Hardly a responsible thing for a "manufacturer" to do. This is why i constantly harp on the differences between brand names and manufacturers. This is the world of other "brand names" out there. It's more common then you think.
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Re: Responsibility Question

Postby kurthuhn » Fri Oct 05, 2012 3:08 pm

Rattler wrote:But for the life of me I cannot understand why the customer does not seek to get answers BEFORE he makes a purchase. Just me I guess, but I'm anal about having as much information that I can get BEFORE I buy.


I'm also completely anal about researching before I buy anything. It drives my wife completely NUTS.
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Re: Responsibility Question

Postby Hawaii_Built » Sun Oct 07, 2012 7:35 am

Could be a blowback from the AR15 craze that's now going on... Everybody wants one, but not everybody knows what they are actually buying. I was at the local Sports Authority yesterday checking ammo prices where a potential first time AR owner was looking over a DPMS. He was being assisted by a very helpful but VERY clueless sales person. They were trying to decide what that little button (forward assist) was for.

I tried my best to pay him no mind, but when he overheard me ask the sales guy about .223 ammo, he asked if I had one of these ARs, and what this button here does. I told him it was the forward assist, and what it was there to do. I was curious to know why he wanted that DPMS over the M&P sitting next to it on the shelf. He said he wanted this DPMS because it didn't have that "sight thing" in the front (it had a railed gas block); he asked the sales guy, "what exactly is an M&P?" Sales guy was busy trying to look for the DPMS box because the buyer wanted to know "if it came with a clip". I quietly made my exit, stage right. Went back later (wife had to run back to the mall for something) and saw the DPMS missing from behind the counter.

Incidentally, 20 round box of Winchester M885 Penetrators go for $12.99 at the local SA. Pretty good deal by Hawaii standards, they were wiped out 3 days after they came in.
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Re: Responsibility Question

Postby shootermcmillan » Fri Oct 12, 2012 8:39 pm

Wow! there are some real boneheads out there. I dont fault the buyer who is clueless so much, I only have a a vague understanding of how my computer works and once inside I know enough to get into real trouble! 8O However the guy that thinks he knows how something works and is just flat wrong.....well those are the really dangerous ones :lol: :lol: This is where the the sales person should really step up and insure that he is serving the customer by educating him, not just making a sale. There is no reason for a buyer to leave the store that clueless. As for Rattlers original post with the blowback .45ACP, I just have to add WOW+1
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