Poorly staked 9mm gaskey on Oly boltcarrier

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Poorly staked 9mm gaskey on Oly boltcarrier

Postby Charlie-2-6 » Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:02 am

Oly9mmbolt01.JPG


Oly9mmbolt02.JPG



There's a story behind these pics and it all started last Saturday.

So there I was, taking part at a Low Velocity Rifle (LVR) match.
As I don't own a LVR, one of my shooting buddies let me borrow his 9mm AR. Basically it's an Oly 9mm upper on a Colt lower, using Sten mags & a magblock. IIRC he has posted here regarding the occasional full-auto fire of this particular weapon.

Initially we planned on using his Oly upper on my Oly lower, but due to an apparently very tight magwell, I couldn't insert the magblock. Thus I used his complete weapon.

At the end of stage one, I already experienced some issues in what looked like a double feed or failure to feed. As it was a match I didn't have the time to thoroughly check the malfunction. I noticed 1 round sticking up in an odd angle, so dropped the mag, got rid of the round, racked the CH a few times, slammed in a new mag and finished the stage.
Then came stage 2, the first 4 shots went just fine, but when I engaged the next targets the planned doubletap came very quick, so I thought "oh, oh, we're going into full-auto", but then the boltcarrier wouldn't ride forward completely in order for the bolt to engage in the locking lugs. The RO send me to the fumble area to remedy the malfunction and allow me to reshoot the stage.

After some headscratching I discovered that the boltcarrier would only ride forward if we removed the rear receiver pin. Funny. So my first thoughts were: it has to be a misalignment between upper & lower. But since I got called on the line again I couldn't further investigate. Lucky for me, one of the other guys in my team let me borrow his HK MP5 with Aimpoint.
So I was able to finish the match.

Meanwhile, the owner of the weapon managed to find out what was wrong: the gaskey had slightly come loose and on & off would align or misalign with the gastube, causing the malfunction.
So when I checked the gaskey I immediately noticed the very poor staking. Glad that it was just such a simple malfunction which can be remedied fairly easily, but still at the time it added some extra stress.

Anyway, just wanted to share.
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Re: Poorly staked 9mm gaskey on Oly bolt

Postby John A. » Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:17 am

The gas key that came on my factory K3BM4 upper was not staked at all when I got it.

Not even dimpled.

They can say they always stake them correctly, but I know of others beside myself who share the same experience.

With that said, it only takes a hammer and punch to stake a gas key.

And if memory serves correctly, oly doesn't stake their keys from the top, but I've seen a few keys punched from the little lip on the side toward the gas key, which I don't like that kind of stake job to begin with.

C26, if your buddy has a hammer and punch, ask him to place the punch on the head of the screw itself, just to the right of the stake punch on the key to displace just enough metal that the screw(s) won't loosen on their own again. Problem solved.
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Re: Poorly staked 9mm gaskey on Oly bolt

Postby Rattler » Tue Apr 24, 2012 12:47 pm

Well, here's what I can tell you. This posting somes with some problems/conflicts.

After a close review of the pictures, I called long time Oly employee Andy Wilson to verify my findings before i posted them here. Here is what we know:

    1. That is ether not an Olympic Arms pistol caliber bolt carrier at all, or a highly (adversely) modified one. All Oly pistol cal conversions come with a weighted carrier. In this image there does not appear to be a weight in the tail of thew carrier. So, it is either not an Oly carrier, or the weight has been removed to the detriment of the system.
    2. While that MAY be an Oly Arms bolt, we are not certain without a 'heads on' image.
    3. That carrier is likely not factory assembled, as that staking pattern is not consistent with what Oly assemblers used, even at that time.
    4. Oly used a cut off carrier key in the day that this system was still in use. However, it is possible that a standard key may have been used as a supplemental fill in, so I cannot be dogmatic about that point.
    5. And this being the most important point: Oly pistol caliber conversions have NEVER used gas tubes. Yes, there is a small gas tube piece that is attached to the front sight in order to keep the handguard cap from spinning, but there should be NOTHING at the breech end of the upper as far as a gas tube goes to impact ANYTHING.

Bottom line, I have serious doubts as to whether this is an actual Oly upper, and am confident (based on what I know from this thread) that this is not a factory assembled upper conversion from Olympic Arms.

Also, i know this may seem like semantics, but I think it is important that we use proper terminology as best we can. I keeps others from being confused. The key does not attach to the bolt, it attaches to the bolt carrier. I run into this problem a great deal working for Olympic as someone calls and orders a complete bolt. We send them a complete bolt, and then they call to complain that all they received was a bolt, or a bolt "head" - of which there is no such thing. There is a distinct difference between a bolt, and bolt carrier, as well as a dist6inct difference between a complete bolt, and a complete bolt carrier assembly. Just rambling, but for a newbies and new readers, it is important.
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Re: Poorly staked 9mm gaskey on Oly bolt

Postby Globemaster » Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:55 pm

Rattler wrote: Bottom line, I have serious doubts as to whether this is an actual Oly upper, and am confident (based on what I know from this thread) that this is not a factory assembled upper conversion from Olympic Arms.

this is an Olympic Arms 9mm Bolt Carrier Assembly, from my OA-K9

Image




Charlie-2-6 wrote:Meanwhile, the owner of the weapon managed to find out what was wrong: the gas-key had slightly come loose and on & off would align or misalign with the gas-tube, causing the malfunction.

note: there is 'zero' staking on this Factory OA-K9 9mm carrier assembly; and why would there be any staking? as this is a true 'Blow-Back' system ... so I'm a bit confused, as to why that other unit is running with a 'gas-key' and 'gas-tube' ???

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Re: Poorly staked 9mm gaskey on Oly bolt

Postby Rattler » Tue Apr 24, 2012 2:22 pm

To their credit GM, the OLD Oly Arms bolts do look similar to what we can see in the pics that he shared. I believe it may be an Oly BOLT, but the balance of the system seems suspect based on the information shared at this time. But, they have never been gas operated, and there would never have been a gas tube jutting into the upper causing impact on the carrier key. That was NEVER part of the Oly pistol caliber system.
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Re: Poorly staked 9mm gaskey on Oly bolt

Postby Globemaster » Tue Apr 24, 2012 2:41 pm

Rattler wrote:To their credit GM, the OLD Oly Arms bolts do look similar to what we can see in the pics that he shared. I believe it may be an Oly BOLT, but the balance of the system seems suspect

copy that ... :D
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Re: Poorly staked 9mm gaskey on Oly boltcarrier

Postby Charlie-2-6 » Wed Apr 25, 2012 3:13 am

See, thats what I like about this place: the quick & decent feedback.

First off (and I think Rattler already realized this): this is by no means a post to "diss" Oly Arms, I just wanted to share what happened and get some feedback.

What I can tell about the upper is what the current owner told me:
he bought it secondhand & the original owner assured him that it was an Oly 9mm upper
the upper has the CAR barrel with that long flashhider (the name slips my mind)

This is the only additional picture I have of the bolt & boltcarrier:

Oly9mmboltcarrier.JPG


I don't have any pics of the upper unfortunately.
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Re: Poorly staked 9mm gaskey on Oly boltcarrier

Postby Rattler » Wed Apr 25, 2012 5:54 am

Charlie-2-6 wrote:See, thats what I like about this place: the quick & decent feedback.

First off (and I think Rattler already realized this): this is by no means a post to "diss" Oly Arms, I just wanted to share what happened and get some feedback.

Yep, understood completely.

Check and see if this system actually has a gas tube in the upper. If it does, it is not an Olympic system, OR, at the very least is not a factory assembled upper. If it truly is an Oly system, take that gas tube out (because it is blow-back operated anyway), and throw it away, or if you do not have the very short stubby little gas tube piece to keep the front handguard cap from spinning, just cut if off inside the front edge of the handguards.
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Re: Poorly staked 9mm gaskey on Oly boltcarrier

Postby sigma_pete » Wed Apr 25, 2012 5:11 pm

That is indeed an early OA upper. I used to have one that Oly staff confirmed was one of theirs. It had a standard (unweighted) SP1 bolt carrier and gas key and had that same bolt shape that yours has. They told me they only made them for "about a year" before switching to the "coned design" and no longer have replacement parts for it, so I got rid of mine even though it ran just fine. I didn't remember there being a gas tube but looked at some old pictures to confirm and it doesn't look like there was one.
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Re: Poorly staked 9mm gaskey on Oly boltcarrier

Postby Globemaster » Wed Apr 25, 2012 5:52 pm

sigma_pete wrote:That is indeed an early OA upper. I used to have one that Oly staff confirmed was one of theirs

nice update sigma_pete :thumbs up:
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Re: Poorly staked 9mm gaskey on Oly boltcarrier

Postby Charlie-2-6 » Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:35 am

Thanks sigma_pete, atleast now I can inform my buddy that he has a true Oly Arms upper.
As far as I can recall from last Saturday, there was a gastube present when I took the upper & lower receiver apart. But I'm going to doublecheck with my buddy anyway.
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Re: Poorly staked 9mm gaskey on Oly boltcarrier

Postby Rattler » Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:39 am

Charlie-2-6 wrote:Thanks sigma_pete, atleast now I can inform my buddy that he has a true Oly Arms upper.
As far as I can recall from last Saturday, there was a gastube present when I took the upper & lower receiver apart. But I'm going to doublecheck with my buddy anyway.


Don't be so fast to confirm. Olympic Arms is not convinced it is theirs, and at the very least, factory assembled. If it utilizes a gas tube, it is NOT an Olympic upper. Might be one made form some Oly parts, but it is not an Olympic upper.
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