Hornady Steel Match

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Re: Hornady Steel Match

Postby Rattler » Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:45 am

ChicagoGunSmith wrote: For the records I am not trying to argue for nor against the use of steel ammo. I am making conversation in regards to a potential trend which may or may not occur. In other words I am just shooting the crap here.


Seems that IS your point. If you weren't arguing for it, even as a "trend" the conversation would have been done a long time ago.

ChicagoGunSmith wrote:I didn't say we have to buy "commie" ammo. Hornady is making their ammo in the USA from commie steel cases. Steel cases can just as easily be manufacturer in the USA?

Yes - for considerably more money, which means they will not be affordable, and therefore their only attraction to the consumer (affordability) will drop to zero. Don't you think that if it could have been done in the US for the same price, it would have already been done?

ChicagoGunSmith wrote:The point I was making in regards to steel ammo has nothing to do with communism or terrorism. I am pretty sure Americans can figure out how to make steel cased ammo too, if there is a market for it. Wouldn't you agree?

No. Right now it has a great deal to do (in my mind) with supporting communism and terrorism. Why? Because steel cased ammo is not made in nations that are not either communist, or supporting terrorism.

ChicagoGunSmith wrote:
Rattler wrote:"It will always be widely used in SKS's, AK variants etc, but it is a relatively new ammo in the scene of 5.56, only the last 15-20 years or so."
That's my point. Hornady is also making it in 9mm and other "3gun" rounds. I think what they are trying to do is manufacturer and market cheap match grade ammo, where match grade ammo is traditionally more expensive. Most humans I know want quality but want cheap more. If you can successfully market (doesn't mean it has to be true, just perceived as true) quality and economical product (of any kind, not just ammo) people will buy the heck out of it!

Sadly, you are correct. When it comes to saving money the average American consumer will put ethics, morality and good judgment aside - for almost anything. Supporting communist States is not a problem, so long as I can get a cheaper TV or cheaper ammo. I'll spend money on products manufactured by a rouge former Superpower that supplies rockets to known world terrorists who have sworn to the destruction of an entire race of people and their nation(Israel and the Jews), and who shoots those rickets indiscriminately into the civilian populace of a foreign and sovereign people just for fun at the rate of 400 per year! Meh, no problem - doesn't bother most peoples conscience at all. Well, it does mine - not to mention the fact that steel cased ammo is bad for your AR15.

ChicagoGunSmith wrote:You are right the price is about the same for the Hornady steel match as it is for any other plinker ammo, but the Hornady is supposed to be match grade making it much much much less expensive than other match grade ammo of supposed equal "quality".

But they cannot make it "as cheap" and never will be able to. At least not as long as this is a nation of free people because freedom has a price. Steel cased ammo cannot be made in the US at the same price it is made in nations that use what is essentially slave labor (China), or who employ people people through fear tactics and extortion (Russia). It's just not gonna happen. That means steel cased "Match" ammo from Hornady is going to cost more than imported commie terrorist ammo, and just slightly less than mass produced reloads made from brass.

Guess you just have to choose.

ChicagoGunSmith wrote: I'm all for the environment. I recycle religiously. Why won't recyclers take it? I have people driving up and down the alleys and streets of the entire Chicago metropolitan area taking every piece of metal, every tv or toy for that matter, placed curb side. The night before trash night it's like a parade of junk collectors spaced 5 or 10 minutes apart. I am willing to bet they would glady come take it and bring it to the scrap yard. After all can't it be melted and turned back into other steel product? I know the guys buying brass cases won't want it, but it's still steel.

First of all, lets stop calling it something it is not. It is not BRASS. It is 'spent casings'. Brass is made from brass.

But to answer your question; Because our government environmental tree-hugger policies call this stuff hazardous materials. And quite frankly, with what the commie terrorists put in their primers, it probably is.

ChicagoGunSmith wrote: Note the ammo prices I previously quoted are whole sale. I buy from wholesalers not places like PSA. I compete against PSA and am lucky to make a buck on a box of ammo, which is why I only sell ammo by the case or half case. I see PSA selling ammo and Pmags sometimes below my purchase price. So I am not comparing wholesale to retail, I am comparing true real wholesale to wholesale. I agree places like PSA, and the like, have killed the market. Note 90% of the ammo I sell and shoot is a Federal or Remington brand.


Another innate problem. The American Consumer expecting to buy retail qualities at wholesale prices. Stop it. If you're not a licensed ammunition dealer (most States require a separate license to deal in ammunition), FFL holder, or importer of ammunition (also requires an FFL, 08 type), then why should you expect to pay wholesale prices? For that matter, unless you are buying in wholesale quantities (many multiple hundreds of cases at a time), then why should you expect to pay the prices normally reserved by the TRUE importers or wholesalers who do purchase at such volumes?

Hey, I'm all about a good deal. We all like to pay less for things, matter of fact we all typically like to pay as little for something as possible. I totally understand that - but let me put it to you this way:


Let's say you have a job to do. This job requires a tool that you do not have. You need a Widget-A to do this job and you do not have one. You have found three places that sell Widget-A's.

    1. The Hardware Store in town, owned by a guy you went to high school with, and who's own kids now go to school with yours. He lives in a modest home on the edge of town, and drives a 15 year old pick-up that clearly needs a tune-up and new tires. The quality of the tool at this store is top notch, and the product is made in the USA. The cost for Widget-A at his store: $59.99
    2. The Box/Chain store in the next town over about 15 miles away. The tool there is made in Indonesia, but carries a major "brand mane" associated with a company that resides in the USA (but whose corporate headquarters are 80% located in Brazil - meaning 80% of the profits go to Brazil). The quality of the tool is not as good as that at store A, but has a reputation of being "OK". The cost of Widget-A at this store is $47.95.
    3. The Harbor-Cargo On-Line Super Discount Store (which really isn't a store at all, but ships what products do ship from within the USA from a 34 year old guys garage who is unemployed and lives with his mother). This store has a "Wijjit-A" (not a real 'Widget-A', but a tool that looks and acts just like a REAL Widget-A, but is made in China by a company that stole the patented design and constructed it themselves in Chine with laborers that get paid $4.00 a month and six bowls of rice if they are good...), that has a reputation for being a one or two time use tool, but sufficient to get the job done that you have the immediate need for. The tools smells like it was manufactured in a dung-heap and then dipped in some sort of foreign grease that while slimy and lubrous, has such a distinct oder that your hands will smell just like it for a week after the job is done. This "mock-Wijjit-A" costs only $29.95, will ship the same day, you get free upgrade to two-day delivery, and all profits go to this Chinese company that stole the patented design.

Which will you buy?????
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Re: Hornady Steel Match

Postby whtsmoke » Tue Aug 21, 2012 10:16 am

NUMBER 1 FOR ME :thumbs up:
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Re: Hornady Steel Match

Postby shootermcmillan » Tue Aug 21, 2012 3:27 pm

Vallid reasoning. I support my local guy when I need just a few boxes, sometimes I work for a discount if I am willing to buy say......all of of what he has, when I can spare the money I order online in bulk, but this requires saving up on my part as I am not a wealthy person or even a middle class income earner. Im always looking for a deal but I ubderstand that the businesses I frequent dont stay in business by stocking ammo and selling it to me at cost. My dealer already gets me my guns at a ridiculously low return on investment for him(though I pre-pay for mine so he has no risk in stocking them). I even pre pay on stuff I plan to order, so I dont begrudge the man a little profit on ammo, thousands and thousands of rounds the he stocks and I cant afford to buy in bulk :thumbs up:
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Re: Hornady Steel Match

Postby ChicagoGunSmith » Sat Aug 25, 2012 3:57 pm

Rattler wrote:
ChicagoGunSmith wrote:Another innate problem. The American Consumer expecting to buy retail qualities at wholesale prices. Stop it. If you're not a licensed ammunition dealer (most States require a separate license to deal in ammunition), FFL holder, or importer of ammunition (also requires an FFL, 08 type), then why should you expect to pay wholesale prices? For that matter, unless you are buying in wholesale quantities (many multiple hundreds of cases at a time), then why should you expect to pay the prices normally reserved by the TRUE importers or wholesalers who do purchase at such volumes?


I pay whole sale because I buy from wholesalers. Reread my previous thread. I expect to pay wholesale because I buy from wholesalers in multiple case quantities. What is a wholesaler? I buy from the same distributors that cheaper than dirt buys from. My customers who buy from me get their ammo off the same shelf as the people who buy from cheaper than dirt. No, I don't buy from cheaper than dirt, we buy from the same source.

Don't get such a bug up your butt, and reread before you reply in a frenzy to prove me wrong because you are skipping over enormously important tid-bits of information that are pertinent to the conversation. Ie: I already mentioned the fact that I buy wholesale and you either chose to ignore or or skipped over it in haste.
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Re: Hornady Steel Match

Postby ChicagoGunSmith » Sat Aug 25, 2012 4:09 pm

Rattler wrote:
ChicagoGunSmith wrote: I'm all for the environment. I recycle religiously. Why won't recyclers take it? I have people driving up and down the alleys and streets of the entire Chicago metropolitan area taking every piece of metal, every tv or toy for that matter, placed curb side. The night before trash night it's like a parade of junk collectors spaced 5 or 10 minutes apart. I am willing to bet they would glady come take it and bring it to the scrap yard. After all can't it be melted and turned back into other steel product? I know the guys buying brass cases won't want it, but it's still steel.

First of all, lets stop calling it something it is not. It is not BRASS. It is 'spent casings'. Brass is made from brass.

Hmmmm ,please reread the quote you posted of my words. When did I call steel casings brass? Duh of course brass is made of brass? I don't see me using the word brass. Brass is brass, steel is steel. Spent cases are brass, steel and aluminum. What kind of dumb rear-end do you think I am? You obviously think I am some kind of cheap rear-end communist loving A-hole, but c'mon. Yes, we agree, brass is brass.

Rattler wrote:
Let's say you have a job to do. This job requires a tool that you do not have. You need a Widget-A to do this job and you do not have one. You have found three places that sell Widget-A's.

    1. The Hardware Store in town, owned by a guy you went to high school with, and who's own kids now go to school with yours. He lives in a modest home on the edge of town, and drives a 15 year old pick-up that clearly needs a tune-up and new tires. The quality of the tool at this store is top notch, and the product is made in the USA. The cost for Widget-A at his store: $59.99
    2. The Box/Chain store in the next town over about 15 miles away. The tool there is made in Indonesia, but carries a major "brand mane" associated with a company that resides in the USA (but whose corporate headquarters are 80% located in Brazil - meaning 80% of the profits go to Brazil). The quality of the tool is not as good as that at store A, but has a reputation of being "OK". The cost of Widget-A at this store is $47.95.
    3. The Harbor-Cargo On-Line Super Discount Store (which really isn't a store at all, but ships what products do ship from within the USA from a 34 year old guys garage who is unemployed and lives with his mother). This store has a "Wijjit-A" (not a real 'Widget-A', but a tool that looks and acts just like a REAL Widget-A, but is made in China by a company that stole the patented design and constructed it themselves in Chine with laborers that get paid $4.00 a month and six bowls of rice if they are good...), that has a reputation for being a one or two time use tool, but sufficient to get the job done that you have the immediate need for. The tools smells like it was manufactured in a dung-heap and then dipped in some sort of foreign grease that while slimy and lubrous, has such a distinct oder that your hands will smell just like it for a week after the job is done. This "mock-Wijjit-A" costs only $29.95, will ship the same day, you get free upgrade to two-day delivery, and all profits go to this Chinese company that stole the patented design.

Which will you buy?????
Being an owner of two small businesses I lean towards the side of small business, and will pay a little more in many cases, but not always. There are too many factors to give a blanket answer because the real answer is totally situational. 1) how close. 2) how quickly do I need it? 3) Do I like this guy I went to high school with 4) how often I will use it. 5) how much can I afford to spend today?

If I am going to use it once and throw it away after I am likely to go with what ever is cheapest. If I am going to use it often and I am going to pay for something top notch. If I am in a hurry I will likely go with whom ever is closest or can get it to me the fastest regardless of price. If I am broke which sometimes happens, guess which one I will pick. There is really no way I can answer 1 2 or 3 as a blanket answer in all situations. IT'S GOOD TO HAVE CHOICES.


As for corporate profits, I'm not sure if you know this or not but iif the company is publicly traded you can buy their stock regardless of their location. I don't care where the corporate profits go to. I'm more concerned with where it's made. I'll buy American made if all things being equal.
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Re: Hornady Steel Match

Postby ididieselman » Sun Aug 26, 2012 6:08 am

I still have found no solid factual evidence that steel cased ammo is harder on parts. What I do agree on and is and proven is that brass expands faster than steel is just pure science. So that being said yes I agree steel will never come near my AR but to really test the theory that steel is harder on parts ex. extractor,feed ramp and so on. A buddy and I have purchased gen 2 glock 19 from glockmeister.com, I will be firing the tula 115 grain 9mm and my buddy will be shooting Federal 115 grain 9mm. We are going to shoot 1000 rounds at a high rate of speed to put the weapons through as much stress as possible at the end will break weapons down completely to see if the steel really wears parts down faster. I will let you know results when done, IMHO if I am able to fire thousands of rounds and POSSIBLY having to get new barrel or extractor. I would rather be able to put more rounds down range which = more training making me better shooter, the money I save could be used to purchase new barrel or extractor IF really wears out. And for glock it is not all that expensive. Just saying!
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Re: Hornady Steel Match

Postby Rattler » Sun Aug 26, 2012 5:38 pm

ididieselman wrote:I still have found no solid factual evidence that steel cased ammo is harder on parts.
I have, and Oly has, many time over, replacing extractors, bolts, having to replace uppers or polish bbl extensions.

ididieselman wrote: (snip)...I would rather be able to put more rounds down range which = more training making me better shooter, the money I save could be used to purchase new barrel or extractor IF really wears out. And for glock it is not all that expensive. Just saying!


Agreed. It is all a trade off you have to decide you want to do. Life is all about compromise......or not.
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Re: Hornady Steel Match

Postby ididieselman » Sun Aug 26, 2012 8:01 pm

I have, and Oly has, many time over, replacing extractors, bolts, having to replace uppers or polish bbl extensions.



I agree 100% about firing steel in my Oly our any AR that is. I believe I have read it some where on this forum and have quoted it myself, a AR is a high performance weapons system, feeding it cheap ammo is like putting regular unleaded in a high performance sports car= poor performance and early break down. :D
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Re: Hornady Steel Match

Postby ChicagoGunSmith » Mon Aug 27, 2012 7:27 am

ididieselman wrote:I A buddy and I have purchased gen 2 glock 19 from glockmeister.com, I will be firing the tula 115 grain 9mm and my buddy will be shooting Federal 115 grain 9mm. We are going to shoot 1000 rounds at a high rate of speed to put the weapons through as much stress as possible at the end will break weapons down completely to see if the steel really wears parts down faster.
I'm very interested in your test results. IMHO this is the only way to really and truly test out a theory, just get down and do it... and in this case probably havea lot of fun doing it too! However do you think 1,000 rounds will be enough to really test the theory?

I don't own a glock, the glocks I have owned I purchased for the sole purpose of resale. I just don't like their feel in my hand, but that's nto to take anything away from the quality of the firearm. I'm just saying 1,000 rounds might not be enough because I hear their barrels last well over 20,000 rounds on the low side. Some people claim to have well over 100k through a stock glock barrel, and I am not disputing those statements.
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Re: Hornady Steel Match

Postby ididieselman » Mon Aug 27, 2012 9:20 am

I agree completely 1000 is def. not enough to wear out the barrel and feed ramp, but just maybe might be able to see if there is any difference in brass and steel on the extractor I have a gen 2 that my dad got in the mid 90's it was my first handgun given to me from him. It has thousands of rounds through it, no upgrade to internals or anything for that fact. It still shoots like a dream accuracy is great only way o tell its age is the holster wear she sports from to many to count holster to presentation back to holster drills and shooting. Back to the main point if steel is as bad as everyone is saying we should see some sort damage. maybe lol
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